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04-13-2007, 05:29 AM

Knight of Cydonia

It's unnatural selection

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Belgium

Posts: 3,859 Knight of Cydonia needs a hobby

'Death to US': Anti-Americanism examined

Quote:

'Death to US': Anti-Americanism examined
The US is perceived by many as an international bully, a modern day imperial power. At this critical moment in history, Washington correspondent Justin Webb challenges that idea. He argues anti-Americanism is often a cover for hatreds with little justification in fact. His three part series takes him to Cairo, Caracas and Washington but it begins where anti-Americanism began - in Paris.

In the Abbey Churchyard in the lovely English city of Bath, groups of demonstrators, many - though not all - of them Quakers, regularly gather to protest against the iniquities of the world. My dear mother Gloria Webb, who died last year, was one of the protesters. In her day, she was an energetic duffle-coated figure who wanted to ban the bomb, stop wars of all kinds and suffering anywhere.

She was a wonderful person, my mum, and so were her friends. Yet it always struck me, when she told me about these protests (and when, I freely confess, I attended them with enthusiasm as a youngster) that there was an odd one-sidedness to the game.

The protests against nuclear weapons, for instance, concentrated on American weapons. The anti-war rallies were against American-led wars. The anti death penalty campaign focused on Texas.

A pattern was emerging and has never seriously been altered. A pattern of willingness to condemn America for the tiniest indiscretion - or to magnify those indiscretions - while leaving the murderers, dictators, and thieves who run other nations oddly untouched.

In the beginning

And if anti-Americanism is alive and well among surprisingly mild-mannered people in Britain - how much more virulent must it be in tougher parts of the world?

To find out, I have visited Venezuela, where the nation's leader Hugo Chavez compares George W Bush to Hitler, and Egypt, where the regime warns of a tide of stars and stripes burning if its hold on power is weakened. And Paris. Paris? Yes Paris - where it all began.

Anti-Americanism was born in France. And here's a fascinating fact: it was born well before the United States existed. It was not caused by Coca-Cola, or McDonald's, or Hollywood or George W Bush.

The prevailing view among French academics throughout the 18th Century was that the New World was ghastly. It stank, it was too humid for life to prosper. And, as one European biologist put it: "Everything found there is degenerate or monstrous."

In their heart of hearts, many French people still believe that to be true.

A French intellectual once compared the United States with Belgium. Wounding. But you see what he meant: the French capital has a grandeur about it that demands attention on the world stage. Belgium does not, nor does most of America.

Washington is grand but Washington was designed by a Frenchman and his vision didn't fit the rest of the nation. America is ordinary. Go on say it out loud on the streets of Paris: "America is ordinary". It celebrates the pursuit of small-scale happiness - in families and communities - and that is what the anti-Americans can't stand.

Dislike

In the heart of Paris, there is the Avenue Franklin Roosevelt. Roosevelt, the man who helped defeat Nazi Germany and liberate Parisian streets, is celebrated here. And the point many French people make is that they would celebrate George W Bush, too, if they agreed with him. The source of anti-Americanism is plain they say. As one interviewee told us: "It's the policies, Stupid."

Well up to a point: in Paris there is plenty of evidence to be found that anti-Americanism is way more than that, that it's not simply reasonable opposition to the things America does. The kind of anti-Americanism fostered by French intellectuals down the centuries revolves around intense dislike of what America is - not what it does .

Sitting in the Cafe de Flore, in the very seat where Jean-Paul Sartre once held sway, the self-described writer and philosopher Bernard-Henri Levy puts it like this: America became the nightmare that French right-wing intellectuals long feared, a nation built not on respectable ties of blood and tradition but on the self-conscious desire to create something new.

Antagonism

Levy is sympathetic to the US, and a book he wrote on his travels there, American Vertigo, is a balanced and thoughtful piece of work.

But such balance is, according to Levy, missing in the French political debate on American power and American life. He describes a process whereby this antagonism to the fundamentals of the USA - to the kind of democracy that celebrates and encourages ordinariness - migrates hither and thither in the French body politic.

It began on the right but now in the shape of Jose Bove (the anti-McDonald's campaigner, and presidential candidate) and other luminaries of the left, it lives on.

And this is not a recent migration brought on by Mr Bush. In May 1944 (just weeks before American GIs landed on the beaches of Normandy), Hubert Beuve-Mery, the founder of Le Monde newspaper - certainly no mouthpiece of the right - wrote this: "The Americans represent a real danger for France, different from the one posed by Germany or the one with which the Russians may - in time - threaten us. The Americans may have preserved a cult of Liberty but they do not feel the need to liberate themselves from the servitude which their capitalism has created. "

It is time that we understood that this attitude, this contempt for what democracy can do, is at the heart of at least some of the anti-Americanism we see in the world today.

"Death to America": Anti-Americanism examined will be broadcast on Radio 4 over three weeks starting on 16 April at 2000 BST.

Justin Webb will also answer your questions about his trip and Anti-Americanism. Send him your questions using the form below.

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Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/...cas/6547881.stm

Published: 2007/04/12 10:55:28 GMT

© BBC MMVII

I found this to be an interesting read. (I'll try and follow this up by posting the next two articles in the future.)

I agree with the article on some points, like the main point (or what I perceived it to be), anti-Americanism used as a cover for other hatreds, but I disagree on others.

Discuss?

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batist - The Frenchy formerly known as Majinbuu -

... and Knight of Cydonia. die. just die. die in a hellpit of fire from satan's ass.

04-13-2007, 06:27 AM	#2
Euphemism unbeknownst Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: B'ham Al Posts: 1,756	Are you the new CNN KnightsofCydonia? __________________ MORE "DIGISTRIBUTION": Xihilisk-EPTwo New album released exclusively through Bittorrent!! Click here and support artists who support piracy!!!

04-13-2007, 06:32 AM

Knight of Cydonia

It's unnatural selection

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Belgium

Posts: 3,859 Knight of Cydonia needs a hobby

What? No, this current events section just lacks a little more life.

__________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batist - The Frenchy formerly known as Majinbuu -

... and Knight of Cydonia. die. just die. die in a hellpit of fire from satan's ass.

04-13-2007, 08:34 AM	#4
ITYTKM Lakitu Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,058	The French, lol. Can't wait for them to raise the white flag again when the extreme muslims in the ghettos of France will slowly start to go on a violent rampage.

04-13-2007, 04:59 PM

thaddius

No crying until the end.

Join Date: May 2006

Location: Inukjuak

Posts: 3,677 thaddius has a pleasant aroma

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITrustYouToKillMe

The French, lol. Can't wait for them to raise the white flag again when the extreme muslims in the ghettos of France will slowly start to go on a violent rampage.

Did MrSnuggles have a kid or something?

__________________

PSN ID: DrSquigglyPants

04-13-2007, 05:55 PM	#6
Ragnar Danneskjöld Selfish Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Houston Posts: 17,949	LOL

04-13-2007, 10:39 PM	#7
Caster13 Meow =^_^= Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,808	Interesting read. But the shortness of this preview only makes it sound as if it's just "the French are snooty". Personally, I think it's because of the overall success of the U.S. it is definitely the greatest super power in contemporary times. And because of this, people don't want to see it lower its standards. It's the epitome of civilization and people think it should be better than everything else so they don't want to see it sink down to the level of its opponents. If the greatest country in the world turns into a disaster, those in not-so-great countries wonder what'll happen to them if they lose the country that acts as a sort of compass. __________________ "I have captured the enemy for meat testing! Praise me! PRAISE ME!!!" -GIR Wi-Fi ID: 1627 8934 4983 8539

04-14-2007, 01:05 PM

Dawson

Mr. Tambourine Man

Join Date: Mar 2003

Location: Australia

Posts: 10,440 Dawson might want to think about buying stock in N-Philes

Quote:

Originally Posted by ITrustYouToKillMe

The French, lol. Can't wait for them to raise the white flag again when the extreme muslims in the ghettos of France will slowly start to go on a violent rampage.

The rampage started a long time ago.

__________________

04-15-2007, 08:02 AM	#9
Batist Treasure Hunter Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sainte Maxime Posts: 34,890	ugh. this article is completely false. Whoever wrote that is an idiot. before the US existed? Then why the fuck did we go there anyways if we hated that place? oh, and noone has far as I know, is anti-american to the point that they'll say "death to america" or whatever. As a matter of fact, there's probably more of an anti-french stand in america then there's an anti-american stand in france. Americans are dilussional that France hates americans because we took a leadership role against the war in Iraq. And that pissed americans. If anything, anti-american sentiments in europe started in...america. And look at that disaster of a war that america brought upon themselves. over 3,000 americans already dead. And who knows how many innoncent civilians died because of americans there. shit. more then 50 people killed because of this war almost every day. France did the right thing in vetoing the invasion. __________________ Last edited by Majinbuu : 04-15-2007 at 08:09 AM.

04-15-2007, 08:47 AM	#10
Ragnar Danneskjöld Selfish Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Houston Posts: 17,949	leadership role? hahahahahaha

04-15-2007, 11:07 AM	#11
Caster13 Meow =^_^= Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,808	I read an article once, I think it was in The Economist, can't remember exactly. But it talked about how the worsening relations between France and the U.S. both politically and socially in terms of popular culture and such was because both countries are/were going through a bit of a right-leaning political movement that made them so similar to one another. It was basically like a case of hating the worse of themselves when manifested by other people. __________________ "I have captured the enemy for meat testing! Praise me! PRAISE ME!!!" -GIR Wi-Fi ID: 1627 8934 4983 8539

04-15-2007, 01:54 PM	#12
Paul Weller Lakitu Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 11,516	Every American who goes to France that I know gets treated like shit by the french people __________________ We're all just hapless victims of knowledge and learning and such The man you thought you licked 'em but you choked in the clutch Brent Black, you said it yourself it's an ethereal kind of flu A Mac virus reveals the plot of the fiendish Fu Man Chu

04-15-2007, 02:10 PM	#13
LastAlliance Trollin' since 2003 Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Klamath Falls, OR Posts: 12,265	Yeah Majinbuu, tell your people to quit being dickheads. __________________ Wow...just wow.

04-15-2007, 07:36 PM	#14
Paul Weller Lakitu Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 11,516	By the way, people who call America imperial have to understand what an imperial power does as opposed to what the US does. yes we have many elements, but to call us an imperial power is just dumb __________________ We're all just hapless victims of knowledge and learning and such The man you thought you licked 'em but you choked in the clutch Brent Black, you said it yourself it's an ethereal kind of flu A Mac virus reveals the plot of the fiendish Fu Man Chu

04-15-2007, 07:38 PM	#15
Robjomak still going strong Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 8,019	Shut up you evil American fascist. You're all the same. PS we should totally name rename Iraq into New Texas

04-15-2007, 09:16 PM	#16
Drunken Savior Jeffersonian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: West Coast Posts: 5,041	I thought we were always treated poorly in France well before the Iraq War. Seriously, when it all comes down to it...this is why France hates us: Lance Armstrong __________________ "Because most people think, "Life sucks, and then you die." I disagree. I think life sucks, then you get cancer. Then you go into chemotherapy. You lose all your hair, you feel bad about yourself. Then all of the sudden the cancer goes into remission. You look good you feel good, you're going great, and all of the sudden you have a stroke. You can't move your right side. And one day you step off the curb at 68th by Lincoln Center and bang, you get hit by a bus. And then, maybe, you die." "I do not advocate drug use. I advocate education and proper science"

04-15-2007, 09:46 PM	#17
thaddius No crying until the end. Join Date: May 2006 Location: Inukjuak Posts: 3,677	Sometimes I wish France would take back the Statue of Liberty. It was clearly ill received. __________________ PSN ID: DrSquigglyPants

04-16-2007, 04:22 AM	#18
Batist Treasure Hunter Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sainte Maxime Posts: 34,890	You guys go eat your freedom fries. __________________

04-16-2007, 10:41 AM	#19
Paul Weller Lakitu Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 11,516	you understand that nobody actually calls them that? as your attorney i advise you to stfu __________________ We're all just hapless victims of knowledge and learning and such The man you thought you licked 'em but you choked in the clutch Brent Black, you said it yourself it's an ethereal kind of flu A Mac virus reveals the plot of the fiendish Fu Man Chu

04-16-2007, 11:43 AM	#20
LastAlliance Trollin' since 2003 Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Klamath Falls, OR Posts: 12,265	I think the dependent should be held in contempt. It's obvious that shortdudes client is french and belligerent to this court. __________________ Wow...just wow.